Detent at the safety was heavy and secure without any rough edges. With most loads, a 9-inch barrel is enough bore for a complete powder burn. Many contend a 1:8 twist will stabilize heavy subsonic bullets. The buttstock was adjustable for length by compressing the lower panel running in line with the buffer tube. Given the test barrel used to produce this data was likely 20 inches or more in length, we think this was still somewhat out of spec. And yet, accuracy from the bench was on par with our other test carbines. Thanks to the precise trigger, the shooter always felt he was in complete control. Instead of being located at 3 oclock and 9 oclock, additional Keymod holes were located in a line upon the surface area that angled upward to the top rail (10 oclock and 2 oclock). The grip was certainly not traditional, offering a very friendly profile, including a pinkie ledge, at the bottom and an extended backstrap up over the web of the hand. No. The base of the grip was hinged to expose a storage space that was water resistant, thanks to a rubber gasket. ". But thats not really new, either. In the same breath, the gun is compact enough to enhance its nimbleness, yet big enough to ensure the cartridges ballistic integrity. Runs great. Handguards are now modular platforms for lights, lasers, and sights, and ambidextrous fire controls are becoming more popular as well. Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited. Springfield Armory SAINT 5.56 NATO [MSRP $919] - Bravo Company Buttstock/Pistol Grip/Handguard/Trigger Guard, Nickel Boron GI Trigger, 16 Melonite Barrel w/ 1:8 Twist. Get the latest news and reviews from Gundigest.com. June 22nd, 2017, 09:15 PM #2. . In the confusion the shot was released off line or as one might say, out of time. Sig isnt the most popular on the forum, but Ive never had an issue with my M400. In use, it seemed to all but disappear. Second Media Corp., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. For a firearm chambered in a rifle caliber, that is shockingly short, especially when you consider the first 2.26 inches or so is the chamber. I was a big Sig fan , After buyig the 1st Tread M400 , I had the Tread 5.56 Pistol on my list , then the Tread 716I - .308 AR-10 , But when I went to buy the tread M400 5.56 pistol I looked at the Springfield Saint 300 Black out . Springfield Armory's $899 Saint, the manufacturer's first AR-15, was treated to a Bravo Company BCM Gunfighter stock and Keymod handrail. At the rear of the receiver, youll see the Maxim Defense SCW brace. Barrel-twist rate was 1:8. Though, the pistol is a 1:8 twist rate affair. Before we jump headlong into what the market holds, perhaps we should touch upon why you might want to go a 300 Blackout pistol. All in, our CMMG rifle displayed 1-MOA accuracy on average for all shots fired, despite our difficulties with the trigger. As was the case with the M400 Classic, the front sight was not visible with the Tango4 optical scope mounted. Profits before the 2A. The art of shooting groups from support is about being patient. The top rail was not really functional as a connection point, but it provided venting. Taylors & Company FS Tactical 1911: Now in 10mm! One set of Keymod holes was located on the underside at 6 oclock. With its A1 front-sight assembly, two-piece plastic handguard and M4 buttstock, the M400 Classic did not appear to be a carbine with the type of upgrades we were looking for. A final note, the Protector is a very shootable pistol, thanks in part to its heft (a shade under 6 pounds). I was really happy . MSRP: $1,100; springfield-armory.com. To the average shooter the price tag doesnt quite reflect it, but the Protector is top-shelf Wilson Combats entry-level 300 Blackout pistol option. But you may have noticed complete uppers selling for as little as $400 during the last rounds of holiday sales and complete carbines selling for less than $700. Instead, its plenty accurate for its intended purpose. The result was more shots fired within the allotted time limit. Can't wait to find the price on this and see one in person . Interestingly, Sig is one of the gunmakers that subscribe to faster-than-usual twist rates for 300 Blackout1:5. 9mm this thing is a work of art and insanely smooth as silk , it shoots its self ..LOL. Please give me your thoughts and opinions! The new 9mm suppressor can mount easily to any pistol barrel threaded x28 inches and doesn't compromise on sound suppression, gas blowback or recoil. Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more. Featured one of the most consistent triggers weve tried and costly ambidextrous controls. OK, so they want in sending rounds waaaay downrange. The old-fashioned buttpad didnt bother us because it was properly fit, but wed definitely change out the grip. About every 20 to 25 shots, the trigger would pull straight through. The bottom line? I own and have experience in small arms and shotguns, so this will be an entry level AR for me. Purely on the rifle's features / traits wise, Update: im being told that both rifles are available for ~$1000 should I wait; i guess the extra $$$ is demand / price gouging for the saint. Just Got this in my e-mail . So, as you can see, this is the ultimate platform for a protective detail, SWAT operations where concealability is paramount, or vehicle or home defense with responsible citizens. Working the charging handle was smooth and revealed no linear movement. But there is hope for me after seeing the new SnakeBite Tread 5.56 . The Black Hills 77-grain OTM was best, producing 0.8-inch-wide groups, and the SIG Sauer 77-grain OTM ammunition produced an average five-shot group measuring 0.9 inch across. The Saint was the only carbine in the test that listed a heavy tungsten buffer among its specs, and it showed by delivering less felt recoil to the shooter. It was very easy to move quickly, and the gun always felt light. I usually rent them from my lgs and/or borrow my friend's. . Keep Reading. During our action tests, we landed four A-zone hits on targets left and center. Love my M400 Tread and if I was in the market for another AR Rifle, i'd absolutely consider it. More money for ammo, Fsatureless affords full capacity magazines, @bamaengineer may i ask why you would choose the Sig over the Saint? I just started a new thread under Sig Rifles to cover Vrtus Patrol. A staff member recently paid $2300 for a complete AR-15 carbine without regret. In late 2019, Springfield released the SAINT Pistol, featuring upgraded components and a retail price of just $849. I really appreciate the input. I plan on using it primarily for hunting and some plinking. I was able to get 10 hits out of 10 on the top portion of an IPSC silhouette at 100 yards with the Lehigh Defense load and Barnes subsonicswell within the designs parameters. With the Saint Edge series of ARs, you get nicely sculpted lower receivers machined from billet aluminum. Ben Voss FN Product Manager talks about the new FN SCAR 15P ultra-compact rifle-caliber pistol at SHOT Show 2023. Joe Kurtenbach and Caleb Giddings also look at the first-ever optics-ready carry revolvers with the new Taurus 605 and 856 T.O.R.O. What we came up with was three AR-15s with upgrades that distinguished them from more traditional models. I am reminded that short barrels are inherently more accurate as there is less flexing during the recoil cycle. PDWs in the modern era see most use with government security details where large rifles are not needed. Full Member. (Most folks will never see such high velocities out of the 5.5 inch barrel.) Like all things in life, this entails tradeoffs. As to the brace, its a Tailhook Mod 2, an adjustable model that does an excellent job of settling in the gun. Keeping all the shots inside the A-zone was important, but for our purposes we wanted to know what characteristics were helping or hindering the shooter. Let's pick up there. Jones .300 Whisper wildcat cartridge and developed the SAAMI-standardized 300 Blackout. Soldiers and law enforcement who wear plates or body armor might not complain about the bare-plastic buttplate, but most shooters will want something more friendly. The Springfield Armory Saint Victor .308 was announced 2 months after SIG had secured the sale with India in April 2019. I found myself hooking my index finger around the front of it while shooting as opposed to actually using it as a hand stop. Its so small you barely know its there, and its also rated for sub- and supersonic loads. Youll probably need hearing protection with sub- and supersonic ammo. Using the Lehigh Defense ammunition, its a 50-yard rifle. Essentially it boils down to performance and suppressibility. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Suppressed, the Rattler ran everything on the supersonic setting (less gas). Both suppressors were more effective than, say, a flash suppressor or muzzle brake, but dont expect the gun to be as quiet as those shown in the movies. Putting it into action required lifting it from its horizontal position. With a 9.6-inch barrel, M-LOK BCM Gunfighter handguard, forward handstop and more, that SAINT served as a solid introductory model. Concerning these small-but-potent arms, they're pretty dang slick in 5.56 NATO, but sing when chambered 300 Blackout. Furthermore, the gun is outfitted with Wilsons proprietary handguard, a fairly light affair that is M-Lok compatible and features a 4-inch accessory rail, as well as quick-detachment sling mounts. So much so that we almost took to calling it a three-stage trigger. The only upgrade we spied was a relief in the takedown pin that helps keep the punch, or bullet tip, from sliding off under pressure. That said, like every cartridge, it gains velocity out of longer barrels to a certain point. Compare. Listen to both sides of the story before you make a decision based on one magazine article. Our Suppressor Guru, seen here with a SIG Sauer SRD-762 on a SIG Rattler, provides some pointers. But it was visible when we used the Romeo4 red-dot scope. During our action test, we simply ignored the sights and read the dot. FN sells a 16-inch-barreled carbine version of the P90, the PS90, but it looks ugly and awkward and is far from compact. In our view, the advertising campaign that preceded the Saints introduction underscored that the AR-15 is not just for the military. But its really a 100-yard rifle with supersonic ammunition. That said, most of the 6.75" barrels shoot supers unsuppressed just fine. I usually have to take break between mags. This rifle also features a free float M-LOK handguard, ambidextrous controls and a rotating bolt system. But like you, I also bought the SA Saint Victor 300 BLK pistol, which is very well made. The top tier AR-15 rifle offered incredible performance at a very reasonable price. The handguard is crap, but I replaced mine with one I found here on the EE. Aristotle who said Republics devolve into democracies and devolve into despotism.. Awesome pistol by the way. The Gunfighter grip offers an extended backstrap to shield the web of the hand and the knurled side panels that provided excellent traction. The SIG MCX Rattler is an incredibly handy rifle thats easy to conceal. That's a $1000 dollar rifle and a good deal at that but you're getting gouged pretty bad at 1400. I'll go with the Sig and do those upgrades for sure. The new-for-2023 lineup includes ultralight hunting stocks and a VGA 2-pound adjustable vertical-grip stock. My wife said I'm going to buy me a new gun which one do you think the Blue or Orange . To activate it from either side of the gun, I mounted its tape switch on the Rattlers Picatinny top rail. Thanks Bio. Sig Sauer may have the answer in the MCX Rattler PCB! Lets see if our money was well spent. As a result of this solicitation, SIG Sauer designed the MCX Rattler, and Maxim Defense came out with the PDX. The barrel is 16 inches and features a 1:8 twist. I'm selling my XD and definitely going with the MCX. Starting in 2009, Advanced Armament Corporation (AAC), in cooperation with Remington Defense, took J.D. I have a lot of love for my BCM because it was my first full build but the Saint is a great rifle off the shelf. Chris Johnson, FN Senior Product Manager, walks us through two new FN striker-fired pistols at SHOT Show 2023: the FN 510 Tactical, chambered in 10mm Auto, and the FN 545 Tactical, chambered in .45 ACP. Wow just read the article on TTAG. I'm curious what kind of accuracy you are going to see out of that thing. One thing I would like to point out that seemingly even many owners of the Maxim Defense SCW and larger CQB braces and stocks dont seem to know is that you only have to use the button to collapse it. I'm looking for advice on whether to buy a Sig Sauer MCX or the Springfield Armory Saint (new free float version). Boasting nice crisp break, the trigger also has a short reset allowing the gun to run fast. Combine the heft with a quality suppressor and the Blackouts recoil is negated to next to nothing, giving the pistol excellent follow-up shot accuracy. Every MCX also comes with an ambidextrous safety selector and magazine release for righties and lefties. Two additional components from Bravo Company contributed to the Saints distinctive lines. Eventually, ammo manufacturers answered the call, and now dozens offer 300 Blackout loads for a variety of uses. PDWs are an established, in-between class of firearm. Takedown revealed nickel-boron coating of hammer and trigger components, plus a tension screw to fix any gap between the upper and lower ends of the rifle. Sig offers several variants, including pistols with stabilizing braces. General guidelines dictate a 1:7 twist rate (there are also the odd 1:5 examples) for subsonic 300 Blackout and a 1:8 or slower for supersonic. Looking past the outdated grip and buttstock, this is a very good rifle that deserved a much better trigger. The selector switch is bilateral and works just fine. [ARCHIVED THREAD] - First AR15 purchase; SIG M400 TREAD v. Springfield Saint Victor? For a company many people thought was years late to the AR party, Springfield Armory has done an amazing job in seizing a substantial percentage of the AR-15 marketplace, and theyre not slowing down. All Guns and Ammo subscribers now have digital access to their magazine content. Honestly, theres not a ton to ballyhoo on the pistol other than it runs, dependably so. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! After our run with the Saint, all three targets showed five hits. The only spot on the Rattler is its trigger. Anybody who has experience with these I would appreciate your opinions. I would use the 110-grain Barnes TAC-TX load and never feel undergunned. The CMMGs single-finger-groove plastic grip is almost extinct because the divider can be uncomfortable and never really seems to be in the right place. I got my hands on the SBR variant, which features a skeletonized stock that folds flat against the left side of the receiver without obstructing the controls. From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm. I really like the trigger in the Saint but the 716i has really good features too. Springfield incorporates some nice accessories from Reptilia Corp. like the CQG pistol grip, which has a more vertical angle than the standard AR grip. The other rifles did not suffer this complaint. Sure, but thats not its sweet spot. So was the grip and handguard. With the stock folded, the gun is only 16 inches long, making it the shortest 300 Blackout weapon on the market. There was, however, a relief on each side of the handguard about 2.5 inches ahead of the receiver for attaching a quick detach (QD) button-style sling loop. During our action tests, we found the fixed front sight a little distracting, even though we had it aligned (co-witnessed) with our Romeo4 red-dot sight. We really liked the handguard. There was another location for a QD sling from either side at the rear of the receiver just below where the buffer tube was attached. American Shooting Centers is a public range, and placing the rifle in the racks during cease fires with the bolt locked open required care because any impact to the buttstock would release the bolt. Shooting the Black Hills 60-grain V-Max 223 ammunition, we were rewarded with five-shot groups that measured an average of just 0.6 inch across. (Tie) LWRC Smg-45 ($3k?fuck!) The fit between the top and bottom end of the CMMG Mk4T was admirably tight, yet the takedown pin was easy to operate. It may not display this or other websites correctly. MSRP: $949; ruger.com. So had to go home and think about it , while driving she asked which one I liked , i like them all but of course . However, given the options available, there are plenty of reasons and opportunities to buy a complete firearm. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. The system is also completely modular like the MPX. The Sig Sauer Rattler. This five-position brace was specifically designed for PDW-sized guns and only hangs 4 inches off the back of the receiver when fully collapsed. These two hunting loads made perfect little holes and passed through their blocks without expanding. Thank you for that information, I really needed to know that. Also, its loaded with frills not often found at this price point. What more can you ask for? The heavier 120- to 125-grain loads performed similarly. A light, compact AR pistol in the right caliber is easy to carry for long distances . The $1000 CMMG Mk4T may still use the M1 buttstock and grip, but the 416 stainless-steel barrel offered a 1:7 twist on the inside and a bead-blast finish on the outside. Though its important to enter this aspect of the cartridge with eyes wide open. I recently bought a Christensen Arms CA-15 G2 in Burnt Bronze, Stainless Steel Barrel w/ Carbon Fiber hand guard. Magazine release from the left side was a little easier if pressure was applied more toward the rearward edge than over the center of the button. Target right showed five A-zone shots. I used two suppressors with the Rattler. The Sig Virtus has these possible configurations: 300 Blackout: Barrel Lengths 6.75", 9", and 16" 5.56mm : Barrel Lengths 11.5" and 16" The Virtus is the more flexible platform, but there is nothing wrong with the Rattler. Forged rather than cast aluminum is now the standard, and machining is more exact thanks to computer numerically controlled (CNC) automation. I have not shot the Tread, I have handled and inspected it though. The stripped-down SBR version of the Rattler weighs in at 5.7 pounds. SPRINGFIELD ARMORY - SAINT 16" 5.56 BRAVO CO MLOK HANDGUARD, Sig Sauer M400 Tread .223/5.56 Semi-Automatic 30rd 16". Furthermore, Sig has a much higher percentage of parts and weapons produced in house, which allows them to control quality much more closely, where as Springfield assembles and builds only a fraction of their product line, AFAIK. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. According to the Sig Rep on ARFCOM: "6.75"/LVAW barrel was/is not made to be fired unsuppressed. I fired the PDW at both an indoor and outdoor range on a cloudy day. Relatively speaking, the 300 Blackout is better suited to shorter barreled guns; in fact, it was designed for exactly this task. After some time and the Rattler was more widely seen in the wild. HKs MP7 has never been available in any commercial form. PDW stands for personal defense weapon. It is not a term that Springfield Armory invented. It's a little longer but CZ Bren 2 MS pistol can be had in 5.56 or 7.62x39 with a couple added inches of barrel than the Sig Rattler. As a result, the American Tactical recently announced the company will offer two new bolt-action rifle systems from Black Creek Labs. All content is 2006-2015 Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association. To get started, click the link below to visit mymagnow.com and learn how to access your digital magazine. Even though the Victor has a 9-inch barrel (1:7 twist), the last feature is a nice piece of mind. They are going to err on the side of caution by telling you they are incompatible but in this situation they are right. Would I want to get shot with it at 200 yards? Upon an audible start signal, the shooter raised the carbine from low ready (about a 30-degree angle to the horizon), switched off the safety, and engaged each target with only one round before moving on. This round was designed to offer terminal ballistics similar to the AKs 7.62x39mm while still being compatible with AR-style rifles, requiring only a barrel change. Nice Sig collection BET7, And I also play the field , I really like my Black Rain Ordnance 5.56 , I would like to add a couple more Black Rains to my collection . Nevertheless, we were able to score A-zone hits with all 12 rounds fired before time ran out. It began in earnest in the late 1980s. But we loved the buttpad and the overall contour of the stock. The free-floated handguard offered Keymod machining on three sides, and the Picatinny top rail extended 11 inches from the receiver. Barrel is Chromemoly Vanadium, Melonite coated inside and out, 1:8 twist and a NATO chamber. The recoil was manageable with the hottest loads, and it was a pleasure to shoot with subsonics. They said nothing as short as the rattler. Introduced in 2015, the MCX is essentially a larger, rifle-caliber version of Sig Sauers pistol-caliber MPX. The only difference are the built in QD mounts to any other lower. From the beginning, we discovered an inordinate amount of creep in the trigger. Another design goal was optimized sound suppressor use, so sub- and supersonic 300 Blackout loads were developed. Before we get there, lets look at the concept of the personal-defense weapon (PDW). Certainly, you get all the nimbleness and convenience of the configuration in 5.56. That said, and this being Wilson, dont expect some off-the-rack experience with the gun. Whereas the SIG Sauer presented direct pressure against a solid object, the Saints trigger offered a subtle compression before reaching its breaking point. The Rattler runs a very dependable gas-piston system, which eliminates all the fouling typical in these short-barreled configurations. The full-profile barrel creates a line that grows from a polymer handguard by Bravo Company that was flat on the sides, adorned with sections of pebbled finish for grip. One last more subtle upgrade was the trigger guard from Bravo Company that left more room for a gloved finger without necessarily having to unlatch the bottom panel. But After getting hooked on the Springfield Saint line I lost interest in the Sig , I feel bad. Our Team Said: Priced at $900 MSRP, the Saint should be extremely competitive for first-time buyers. But thats what your 20-inch barreled baby is for, right? For targeting, I installed a set of Daniel Defenses fixed sights, as well as a Sig Sauer ROMEO3 reflex sight in a tall mount for co-witnessing. As to the tale of the tape, the gun has a 10.5-inch cold hammer-forged barrel (1:7 twist) and comes in at a very agile 5.8 pounds. Pistol: Semi-Auto. Get the 76th edition of the World's Greatest Gun Book. This website contains many older reviews. Targets left and center showed four A-zone hits, but one shot on each target was outside of the A-zone. It started expanding at about 6 inches and fragmented at 15, leaving just the lead core and base at 26 inches. SA ars get a lot of shit from people but it has been a really good rifle. The Sig Rattler would fit the description of what your looking for perfectly with a 5.5 in .300blk barrel and no buffer tube. To test this, I fed the PDW Black Hills 77-grain TMK load in addition to more traditional offerings. 354K views 4 years ago In this episode of TFBTV, James Reeves reviews the SIG MCX Rattler, a 5.5" PDW in .300BLK that has been purchased for US SOCOM evaluation. This is why the gun world is awash in top-notch 300 Blackout pistols. It has a nickel boron coating and provides a single-stage trigger pull. Extraordinary accuracy. a little more then I've ever spent on a gun .So I called it a holy grail gun , which I had many other guns in front of that one . It opened up at about 3 inches and penetrated 12.7 inches, retaining 192.8 grains of its original bullet weight. If I did buy another SIG rifle it would be the 716 to replace my Victor .308 (most know my issues with this gun). I would go with the sig. Has anyone actually tried the omega 9k on the rattler? Sig Sauer The AR Pistol Afield. The result was sub-MOA groups (less than 1 inch center to center) from two of the five test ammunitions, including our lightest bullet and our heaviest. Given the paperwork and money you spent on the can, is it worth testing twist-rates theories yourself? When I saw it, I wanted to hate it, specifically for what it isnt. In these times, what you want and what is available are two very different things. I put a ton of ammunition through this rifle, and everything workedtypical of the MCX series. A free-float handguard would likely make this the perfect carbine. The Black Hills 77-grain OTM rounds were next best, showing an average five-shot group measuring about 0.9 inch. JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. What surprised me as much as the complete reliability was how soft-shooting the PDW was. Both rifles have a similar price, $809 for the Saint with discount code and $799 for the Tread. Stocky's Owner Don Bitz walks David Faubion through the company's new rifle stocks for 2023. Type: Semi-Auto Pistol. The SIG MCX Rattler is an incredibly handy rifle that's easy to conceal.